84 
FOREST AND STREAM 
No, sir, Mr. Rigby . the test, if test there is to be, must be of 
the best against the best, without nDy restrictions to the rifles 
of the past. Let us bring our best weapons to the front, and 
do you the same, and when rapidity of firing is a qua non 
it is simply absurd to objert to the use “of any special appa- 
ratus to abridge the time required for cleaning from the 
breech." Of what use is it to lire over again the Centennial 
match in such a disjointed way as is here proposed. If it is 
to be a match against time-^thut is, the greatest score in the 
least time— make it so in every respect— place no obstacles 
in the way. Methods of manipulation, which might be very 
appropriate in the leisurely conduct of an all-day match, 
would be entirely out of place here. Then the marksmen 
could get up from the firing mat, sit comfortably down and 
swab out with care and deliberation. Does Mr. Rigby sup- 
pose that we would not bring every appliance to bear in the 
saving of time ? There is a very much quicker way of clean- 
ing a rifle than that followed in the Centennial match, and 
Mr. Rigby would have an opportunity of witnessing it if this 
proposed match be carried out ns it should be ; and to insist 
further that the men should use one and the same target, fall- 
ing back after firing, is placing an unnecessary clog in the 
way of those wishing to make the most of their time. 
On the point of firing the match on different ranges, which 
the Sharps people propose, Mr. Rigby makes very proper ob- 
jections. If Mr. Rigby can secure time and opportunity for 
the match at Wimbledon, it would seem to be au excellent 
stroke of policy to fight the matter out there' in July next. A 
match shot on ranges where the climatic conditions and 
weather surroundings are so dissimilar as Creedmoor and 
Wimbledon, would be decisive of nothing at all, and Mr. 
Rigby »s justified in objecting to such a cheap farce ; but if he 
is “really desirous of “ demonstrating that the American 
breech-loading match-nfle does not possess the advantages of 
rapid and simple manipulation, which properly belongs to 
breech-loaders, and that it is in this respect inferior to our 
muzzle loader,” let him make a match or agree to one in which 
each arm shall be handled by experts bound to get the very 
best results out of it, each weapon to be the heft of its class, 
and let no circumstance be tacked on or condition imposed 
which shall hamper in the slightest degree any of the contest- 
ants- Mr. Rigby's letter of February 12 proposes many such 
impediments which cannot be justified. I know that thg 
L e w I am advocating was that taken by everybody in the N. 
P A office when the challenge first appeared, and these 
restrictions do not strike us us in consonance with the first 
broad gauge of battle. Nick. 
THE WINCHESTER RIFLE IN THE 
ROCKY MOUNTAINS. 
Sax Lms Park, Colorado, Feb. 14, 1878. 
Editou Forest and Stream : _ 
Your correspondent, “ Viator," in your issue of Feb. (, 
asks your readers, who have used the new .45-calibre, 76- 
gram Winchester rifle, to say what they think of it for deer 
shooting. I was enabled through tbe kindness of >Y m. Read 
& Son® Boston, to procure one of the rifles from the manu- 
facturers early in the fall, made to order, pistol grip, short 
magazine, nickel trimmings, and with sling; in all other 
respects the rifle is the same as those now in market. I 
wanted it for use in the Rocky Mountains for deer and moun- 
tain sheep, and where, I am glad to say, it has given me great 
satisfaction. I have used it on at least twenty hard days' 
mountain tramps, giving it as severe usage as any rifle should 
ever be subjected to, using it fairly as a staff in climbing, and 
I can now say that the rifle seems to have improved by this 
hard treatment. Our mountain hunting here is perhaps os 
bard and difficult as can be found anywhere, and often de- 
mands from tbe hunter a free use of his rifle to assist him in 
climbing to the altitude necessary to reach to find tbe moun- 
tain sheep. For this the Winchester is admirably suited. 
If “ Viator" is a mountain hunter, and remembers his moun- 
tain climbings, he will appreciate the Winchester's rather 
short stock and rifle butt plate, with its loDg toe or beak, un- 
usually well adapted to give a firm hold upon the rocks. I 
find the rifle to give but little recoil, and to be an accurate 
shooter up to 800 yards. I have not tested it carefully for the 
longer ranges. The shape of the butt plate makes it a pleas- 
ant rifle to use for off-hand shooting, and especially as a mag- 
zioe gun, where rapidity of fire with a correct aim is re- 
nuired. One needs but to raise the elbow as high as the 
shoulder, and the rifle will rest naturally at a level if held 
rtrmlv a-'ainst the arm at the shoulder. I was unused to it at 
first and did not like it ; I now like it very much for off-hand 
shooting But a Bhort time since I fired with it three shots 
ner day for three days, 300 yards off-hand, Creedmoor target, 
making 39 out of a possible 45. I have never done better 
under the same conditions with aDy rifle. 
.. viator" writes of using the English double express rifle. 
I have one, but it lies now unused in its case ; in almost all 
respects I prefer the new Winchester. I can get in two shots 
a little quicker with the double rifle, but with the Winchester 
lean get in six in rapid succession, and one often wants more 
than two shots. Last December, while out for mountain 
sheep I came upon a band of five black-tail deer ; they were 
150 yards off at first shot, but before they got out of raoge I 
bad four of them down and had wounded the fifth. 
I found the nickel trimmings too bright, and the metal 
where one grasps the rifle in carrying it still-hunting very cold 
to my band, and to remove these objections I covered these 
parts with buckskin, which answers the purpose admirably. 
My Winchester shows service, and 1 find it can be relied 
uuoo and I like it for deer hunting better than any other rifle 
J have ever used. The only drawback I find m the most sat- 
isfactory use of the rifle is in the cartridges furnished for use 
with it by the Winchester Company. The materials, powder, 
lead etc , are all right, but tbe shells are so tightly closed 
down upon the bullets that many of them, after carrying in 
tbe magazine but a short time, riding or climbmg, become 
shortened an eighth to a quarter of an inch, caused by the 
bullet being forced into the shell, and they cannot be loaded 
from the magazine (not an ogreeable condition of things), and 
they roust be taken out of the magazine from the side before 
the rifle can be made to work, aDd if they are used must be 
loaded from the top. I am very careful and often examine 
to see that I have n® shortened cartridges in the magazine. I 
am surprised that the Winchester Company does not remedy 
this defect in their cartridges. Certainly, it can be done and 
it should be done, and so thoroughly done, too, as to render 
any objectionable shortening of the cartridges impossible. I 
sent for their reloading tools and used them, employing the 
best skill I was master of, but the result has been very unsat- 
isfactory. If the Winchester Company will remedy this de- 
fect in their cartridges, and could be induced to send me a 
(®w to assure me that they are what they should be, I should 
be made very happy. Has "Viator" tried the new E vau8 ’ 
magazine rifle model of 1877 for deer-hunting ? I have not 
had the opportunity as yet. There can he no such trouble 
with the cartridges in the Evans. M- S. 
SOME RECOIL NOTIONS EXPLODED. 
Monmouth, 111., Feb. 6, 1878. 
Editor Forest and Stream : 
In looking over your very interesting paper, I have, from 
time to time, seen I kuow not how many long-winded articles 
on the cause of recoil of guns. One would naturally suppose 
when the truth lies upon the surface plain and palpable, as it 
does iu this case, that lie who goes digging and delving at the 
bottom of a well for it, should at least be left to enjoy the 
pastime ns best he may in silence and alone, and not trouble 
others with his far-fetched folly. 
The theory advanced is that when the ball is driven from 
the chamber of the gun, there Is a vacuum created in the barrel 
into which air rushes, striking the bottom of the chamber 
with force enough to cause the recoil : a most stupid propo- 
sition, and one without a single fact to support it. A good 
article of gunpowder will produce, on combustion, about 
fifteen hundred times its volume of gas. This gas is nearly, 
if not quite, as heavy as atmospheric air. The mo9t of it, of 
course, escapes immediately after the escape of the bullet, but 
the chamber remains full of ib There is no vacuum. Look 
through the barrel of your breech-loader immediately after it 
is discharged, and you will see a practical refutation of this 
theory. The barrel is found full of gas, mixed with a quantity 
of free carbon, in the form of smoke. Is it not plain that if 
the air had entered, as stated, that the gas and smoke would 
have been driven out? The gas evolved by the combustion of 
gunpowder is a positive power, instantaneously created, act- 
ing with equal force in all directions. The bullet is driven 
out because it is the only wall of the house weak enough to 
yield to its power. And there is a shock equal to the weight 
of the ball added to the friction communicated in the opposite 
direction upon the breech of the gun. The explosion tends 
to drive the two bodies apart in opposite directions, as it were, 
and if the gun were no heavier than the ball, it would be 
driven just as far backward as the bullet would be forward. 
That the lighter the gun, and the heavier the ball, with any 
given charge of powder, the greater the recoil, is a truth in the 
experience of any one who has used guns very much. 
Mr. Editor, do you not remember in the old muzzle-loader 
days of glorious memory, when you, in your excitement, 
chanced to put too loads of shot in the same barrel, and at 
night, while you were rubbing the discolored swelling on 
ynu r shoulder with arnica or whisky, did you, in your 
mighty wisdom, conclude that the double charge of shot had 
nothing to do with it ? I guess not ! No, sir; the expanding 
gas forces the bullet in one direction, and jams the breech of 
the gun in the opposite, and that is all there is of it. 
Mr. Ferris says he has never been able to detect recoil until 
after the ball has left the muzzle. In answer, I would just 
say that if Mr. F. has the senses of sight and hearing good 
enough to verify his statement, he sees and hears most acutely. 
I undertake to say that the time between explosion and exit 
is inappreciable to the senses of common mortals. His ex- 
periment with the rifle rested on an incline proves nothing, 
ns the recoil is directly backward, and would give no lateral 
displacement to the barrel, and would not, therefore, 
disturb the accuracy of the shot. Mr. Editor, I am not sur- 
prised to see such a fallacy advocated by a single individual 
(for some men are very full of notions), but I am amazed to 
see so many others falling in with it, and commending it 
through the columns of your paper. In this, as in most other 
cases, truth is on the surface, and doe9 not need a metaphysi- 
cal deduction for its discovery. V enatob. 
In your issue of the 24th Jan. there appeared two articles 
upon the subjects of recoil and upset of bullets. In one of 
these— from the pen of Mr. George H. Ferris— I was much in- 
terested, especially as it corroborated and gave emphasis to 
my own views upon the same subjects. From my own ex- 
periments, I am positive that recoil never takes place until 
after the exit of the charge. Furthermore, it appears tome 
that the frictional force of the projectile alcmg the bore of a 
gun is sufficient to carry the gun slightly forward in the direct 
line of fire prior to the exit of the ball. This would seem to 
be the case, since the most perfectly fitting false muzzles 
have at times been shot away, through negligence, particularly 
those that are not provided with a safety knob, which ob- 
structs the view beyond the muzzle sight. Mr. Ferris at- 
tributes the upsettal- of projectiles mainly to the " great 
blow " given by the explosion, in opposition to such theories 
as attribute it in a great measure to air pressure. The resist- 
ance of the air column within the bore of no rifle is of suffi- 
cient moment to figure as a factor of prime importance in in- 
vestigating the upsetting of projectiles. This is a fact which 
will eventually become equivalent to an axiom, and it is al- 
ready recognized as such by many who have had any experi- 
ence with explosiec shells. These missiles, when proper care 
is bestowed in their preparation, are so sensitive that contact 
with the merest twig which opposes their line of flight will 
too often explode and scatter them. If driven at sufficient 
velocity they may he made to explode upon the surface of a 
suspended playing card. Now it is clear that these shells 
would be exploded in the bore of the rifle the instant the ex- 
plosion behind them overcame their own inertia, were it true 
that the resistance of the air opposed even a fair proportion of 
that crushing force exerted to upset a projectile. 
The second communication, to which I referred at the out- 
set, was from your correspondent “ Venator " of Monmouth, 
Warren county, 111., who opposes Mr. Ferris, to no purpose! 
however, as his objections are overruled by facte, adduced 
lrom many carefully annoted experiments. "Venator” ac- 
cuses* Mr. Ferris of misapprehending both the long-range 
breech and long-range muzzle-loaders, and I am at a great 
loss to discover that he (Mr. Ferris) misapprehends either. 
“ Venator,” however, shows himself at fault in more ways 
than one. He asserts, to quote his own words, " the base of 
the ball is either perfectly flat or slightly oval, and cannot be 
influenced in that way < i. e swaged into the grooves) by the 
force of the discharge behind." Now let it be granted that 
the projectile in being pushed home in a muzzle-loader takes the 
grooves upon a bearing surface of, say one sixteenth of an inch. 
If this bolt be fired into a snow bank with a reasonable 
charge of powder, it will, when found, bear the impress of 
the grooves upon two-six tceutbs of nn inch, or more of its 
length, according to its ratio of hardening alloy. Aeatn 
“ \ enator” is wrong in his conception of the projectiles used 
upon the occasion of the international match by the respective 
teams, and Mr. Ferris is light iu assertiug that these projec- 
tiles were swaged into the grooves of the American and 
foreign rifles alike by the “spreading” (/. c. upsetting of the 
ball). Although there is a perceptible difference in the calibres 
of somo Remington Creedinoors, I have never ns yet 6ccn or 
handled one of them of a calibre sufficiently small to prevent 
its being loaded from the muzzle with either the old stylo 
forty-four, or the new Hepburn forty-four bolt. The " Hep- 
burn" is a rather close lit, more so than the old "style" 
(both being paper patched), and yet it is solely on account of 
the patching that they accommodate themselves to the rifling 
when loaded from the muzzle. I will conclude by saying that 
I used my Remington Creedmoor invariubly as a muzzle 
loader, aud of all tho hundreds of holts of four varieties fired 
from it, not one has taken the grooves until upset by the 
powder discharged. Gilbert T. Smith, 
Sandy Spring, Montgomery Co., Maryland, Jan. JO, 1878. 
"Recoil” and “ UrsKT.”— Editor Forest and Stream: 
I have read the numerous letters upon the above subject from 
"Straight-Bore,’’ " Venator,” “ Forms,” and others, until all 
my previous theories are upset, and 1 recoil from presenting 
them. In the language of the poet— I have forgotten his 
name who wrote — 1 have also forgotten the language, but, 
stated iu prose, I had not supposed so much could be written 
upon the subject. According to one the " recoil does not 
take place until the bullet leaves the muzzle." Now, if you 
get a posterior kick from a mule, the recoil takes place about 
the same time that the foot commences to start on its return 
voyage, and tbe recoil aud upset arc simultaneous. Accord- 
ing to my notion, it is the same with firearms. If tho recoil 
only takes place after the bullet leaves the muzzle, then there 
should be just as much recoil without a bullet, or with a light 
bullet as a heavy one, which is decidedly not the case. The 
explosion of the powder generates a force in the shell equsl to 
from fifty to seventy-five tons to tbe square inch. It is a cul- 
minating force, aud with proper powder should reach its 
greatest about the time the bullet leaves the muzzle. When 
the force is generated, the bullet, offering the least resistance, 
is moved, and that instant the recoil commences. Iu propor- 
tion to the resistance offered by the bullet will be the recoil 
at the same instant the i^pset commences. It undoubtedly fills 
the grooves at once, otherwise gas would esenpo, but it con- 
tinues to be upset and shortened till it leaves the barrel. In 
proof of this, I cite an experiment. I shot a Sburps 050 grain 
bullet iu a g G-lOth chambered rifle, but fired a 2 1-lOth shell, 
thus bringing about one-half the bullet into the chamber. 1 
caught the bullet in sawdust, aud found about one-third the 
distance from the heel a plaiuly marked ring around it, show- 
ing what part had been caught iu the chamber by the blow ; 
but behind this ring the marks of the rilling showed ns plainly 
as in front of it, and must uecessarily have been made after 
the force that formed the ring. It “ Ferriss " will try the ex- 
periment of resting the muzzle loosely in a given position, and 
tire a few shots, and then fasten it In the same position, so 
it cannot move, and shoot again, he will discover that “ the 
world moves." The barrel, in my opinion, unquestionably 
moves before the bullet leaves it ; but with uniform ammuni- 
tion and uniform holding, it will move alike each time, and 
therefore give uniform results. It is the lack of uniformity 
in these respects that makes poor shooting. 
Yours, truly, F. Hyde. 
Upset of Bullets. — Utica, Feb. 4. — Editor Forest and 
Stream : In your issue of January 24 I noticed an article from 
"Venator,” who takes me to account for my statements 
“ that those foreign muzzle-loading rifles and American 
breeeh-loaders ('used in the national match) were made on the 
same principle.” I dislike to take apace in your valuable 
paper to argue a qiffestion that is so well understood by rifle- 
men and riflemakers ; but 1 feel it my duty to reply. I do 
not wonder that my statements were so unaccountable to 
“Venator." It is evident that he does not Understand the 
principle on which those long-range rifles are made. His idea 
that a bullet cannot be upset by force of powder (unless it has 
a cavity, or a taper plug in the base) is many years behind the 
time. The old style, cone-shaped bullets, used in muzzle- 
loaders, would not shoot well unless they upset and formed a 
bearing three times longer than the imm-int made on the 
bullet in loading. It is true that the ola style bullets for 
breech-loaders were too laige (if made of hard metal) to load 
at the muzzle ; but those of recent make for long-range shoot- 
ing are made to just fill the bore with a patch, and depend 
mostly on the force of powder to expand them to the grooves 
in the gun. The foreign muzzle-loaders have bullet9 fitted in 
the same manner, and both guns used in the national match 
were much on the same principle ns I stated. Iu the national 
match of 1874, Lieut. Henry Fulton loaded his Remington 
breech-loader at the muzzle (and it did not make him sweat 
much cither). He thought it au advantage to do so to insure 
a perfect expansion near the base of the bullet. His theory 
was that a bullet expanded only at the moment of explosion, 
and the portion near the base that fitted into the shell did not 
take the grooves at that point. His theory was correct as far 
as my observation goes. I have noticed thut bullets that fit 
tight in the shells do not take the grooves near the base, be- 
cause there is no room for expansion. Those that fit loose in 
the shellB take the grooves near the base. I tried solid base 
cylindrical bullets iu a Government carbine some twenty years 
ago. The bullet just fitted tbe base with a patch, aud de- 
pended on the force of powder to expand them to the grooves. 
They shot much better than the old style bullets with a cavity 
at tbe base. If Col. Minnie had known the force of powder 
upon a solid base bullet of suitable length, lie would have 
found it unnecessary to make a cavity in tliem to make them 
take the grooves. If " Venator " will consult some one who is 
posted on rifles, he will get more light on the subject, (and 
find that he was much further from the mark than be sup- 
posed me to be. Let me here say a word to “ Straight-bore ” 
and “J. H. K.," to show that a bullet is not upset after it 
starts by compressed air, or friction. Before a bullet can upset 
after it gets under motion there must be resistance in front 
equal to the force behind. In that case the part near the base 
gets a shock to expand it as much as it would in front ; and 
why docs it not expand that thin portion that fits tight in the 
shells ? It would certainly do it if a bullet gets an additional 
upset by compressed air. The concentrated force of the 
powder at the moment the bullet leaves the shell is greater 
than at any other point while within the barrel, and it does 
not expand that thin portion near the base tliut failed to tttke 
the grooves on the start, which is conclusive proof that no 
upset takes place after the bullet starts. Friction cuusea less 
upset at centre of gravity than when tho bullet is free to react, 
but would upset more close to the base. If a long bar 
of> lead was held at one end in a vise that weighed one ton, it 
cculd not he upset with a sledge hamm;r only on tho end 
where the blow was given. The heavy, deud weight of the 
