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many years ; — and if I have not come to the conclusion that most of those 
around me have come to, I can assure you that it has not been from any wil- 
fulness of disposition. Dr. Irons has told us that a man can believe if he 
likes. Now, I beg to say that so far as my experience has gone, that is not 
true of all persons. In my own case it is not true. I was born of religious 
parents, and in my early days I had a religious education. My mother was 
a most devout Christian — a most devout believer, and I may say, in passing, 
that she was a Calvinist, and held that doctrine which I was pleased to 
hear Dr. Irons demolish — I mean the doctrine of predestination. In my 
subsequent years I have not been religious. I cannot be religious now, from 
any information or revelation (if you will allow me to use the word in my own 
sense), that has ever been imparted to me. Dr. Irons talks of the responsi- 
bility of man to a higher power— to the moral Governor of the universe. 
The only responsibility that I can understand is that of man to man. That 
moral Governor of the universe, whom the doctor sees, I do not see. I look 
around me, — I see the inequalities of society, I see the different developments 
of men and women among us ; and I see that they act more from their own 
wills and impulses than from any superior moral governance that may be 
supposed to be directing their actions. And, if there be a supreme moral 
Governor of the universe, how is it that all men act differently — that some 
men, with the purest and the best intentions, will work wrong to their fellow- 
men ? And how is it, if there be a revelation from God to man, that I have 
not received the same amount of revelation that will induce me to receive the 
religious truths which Dr. Irons appears to hold so profoundly ? I do not be- 
lieve them, and I cannot in my own mind comprehend them ; and I beg you 
not to suppose that I say that from any flippant notion, or from not having 
duly weighed the consequences of my words 
Dr. Irons. — No, no. 
Mr. Holyoake. — I say that I cannot comprehend anything above and 
distinct from nature. As I understand it, a supreme moral Governor of the 
universe must be a being, an entity, a something distinct and apart, and 
altogether outside of nature — a being who made all things, and who is 
governing all things. If He be a being of all goodness and all wisdom, how 
comes it that all men are not good, that all men are not happy, and that we 
do not all view Him in the same light ? Now, I have tried earnestly and 
sincerely if, by searching, I could find out God, or, in other words, whether I 
could see sufficient evidence in the universe to justify my belief in something 
distinct and apart from nature, but I have not succeeded. I recognise no- 
thing apart from nature ; and what a revelation may be from supposed super- 
natural sources, I know not. I should like, if any gentleman has the 
knowledge, for him to tell me what the signs would be whereby I should 
know when I received a revelation from God. All the revelation that I can 
imagine any human being receiving, is that which will arise from superior 
education, from extensive knowledge, and from a highly-developed mental 
organization. But I understand the doctor to mean that a revelation is 
