342 
JOURNAL OF HORTICULTURE AND COTTAGE GARDENER. 
[ Ootober 15, 1885. 
and autumn use ? I maintain that the Black Hamburgh itself cannot 
compete with it for flavour nor appearance either when well grown. 
Muscat Hamburgh may be as good in point of flavour, but will not com¬ 
pare in berry or colour. If “ A Kitchen Gardener ” had seen the grand 
bunch of Madresfleld Court exhibited last month at Dundee, and 
again at Edinburgh, I fancy he would hesitate before pointing out the 
bad points, which he did on page 293, for certainly in the splendid 
examples referred to none of these bad points were to be seen. It re¬ 
flected the highest credit upon the grower, whose name I unfortunately 
cannot now remember. I shall never forget the splendid examples of 
this Grape that used to be seen at Cardiff a few years ago from the 
gardens of Cyfartbfa Castle. It was these examples of cultural skill that 
rirst prompted me to endeavour to overcome the difficulties attending the 
culture of this grand Grape, and if I have not succeeded yet I feel 
encouraged by what have been obtained, and shall certainly persevere 
still fuither in Bpite of all “ A Kitchen Gardener ” may have to say 
against it. — Wm. Jenkins. 
I AM glad to find that this subject is receiving the attention it merits 
and am con7inced the outcome of ic will be that judges next season will 
not so readily accord first honours to unripe fruit. According to the views 
of “ S.” (page 268), who argues cleverly, and carefully avoids answering 
important questions put to him, if we discourage the exhibiting of late 
sorts of Grapes at our early shows, then we inflict great hardships, and 
wbat is worse, as being of more general interest, we exclude all our finest 
sorts, and these will never be shown in perfection. A very few years ago 
this argument would have had some weight, but is now simply senti¬ 
mental and worthless. Is it possible he has overlooked the fact that 
Chrysanthemum shows are now held in nearly every town and village 
of any importance, through the south and south-western counties at any 
rate, and that in every case prizes, and in some instances good ones too, 
are offered for Grapes ? It is then when these magnificent examples of 
late Grapes should be seen to advantage, and receive the honours rightly 
deserved, but to encourage the general forcing of these so as to have them 
coloured early—I will not say ripened, for ripe they are not—is a very 
different matter, and 1 am surprised to find that there are practical dis¬ 
interested men advocating it. 
I think it will generally be conceded that not one of these showy late 
Grapes, if we except Mrs. Pince, which under good treatment is much 
better in quality than the majority, are of first-rate quality, and some of 
them at their best only second-rate, yet they are, if we may believe “ A 
Kitchen Gardener,” to gradually oust out such sorts of Madresfleld 
Court, and doubtless Black Hamburgh, one being fully equal to the other 
taking all things into consideration, and both require about the same 
amount of skill to bring them to perfection. Black Alicante in particular 
is considered worthy of every encouragement, and to be the Grape of 
the future, and why ? Simply because, according to his ideas, it is the 
most easily grown of all Grapes, never failing to set and colour well, and 
keeping sound and in splendid condition for months, “ while its value on 
the table may be reckoned from the quantity grown everywhere and the 
great demand for it in the market.” The latter qualification completely 
spoils the whole of “ A Kitchen Gardener’s ” rather overdrawn esti¬ 
mate, and he would have done better to have boldly stated that the 
quality was all that could be desired, or something to match what he had 
previously advanced. This correspondent really contrives to refute his own 
arguments, his zeal evidently overrunning his discretion. For instance, 
he expresses the opinion, and which it will not serve my turn to dispute, 
that varieties “ which are in the habit of winning prizes, are soon sought 
after and planted by the public generally,” the natural consequence 
being that showy Grapes, unless intelligently judged, as they certainly 
were not at Shrewsbury and other shows I have previously mentioned, 
will gradually oust out sorts that require more skill in culture perhaps, 
but which are infinitely superior as far as quality is concerned, and that, 
after all, ought to be the primary test. I would like to call the attention 
of “ S.” to this passage, which I quoted from 11 A Kitchen Gardener’s" 
letter, and would ask him whether a better reason could be given why 
these second-rate and admittedly easily grown sorts should be excluded 
from the early shows, or at any rate from classes where they would have 
the better varieties at a decided disadvantage. 
Then as to the other proof of quality, as shown by the great demand 
for it in the ma'kets. Evidently “A Kitchen Gardener” knows but 
little about the class of fruit that rules the market, or, if he does, I do 
not. According to my experience, appearance has more to do with a 
ready sale than quality, the latter being quite a secondary consideration. 
Again, how many employers would eat the best ripened Alicantes placed 
before them if they could have the choice of only moderately well-grown 
Black Hamburgh, Muscat Hamburgh, or Madresfleld Court? May I ask, 
Does the noble marquis alluded to have those Alicantes regularly sent to 
the table after, say, the Black Hamburgh? are finished? or is it not rather 
nearer the mark to say that the majority of those handsome and doubtless 
well-ripened Alicantes find their way into the markets? Otherwise I 
shall have but a poor opinion of this nobleman’s taste, for the simple 
reason that I never tasted Alicantes to equal either Hamburghs or Madres- 
field Court. The latter is by no means so difficult to grow as some people 
seem to imagine, but it certainly requires more skill to bring it to per¬ 
fection than does the Alicante. Madresfleld Court is, as a rule, quite as 
well coloured as the majority of the bunches of Black Hamburgh, keeps 
better than that variety, and may safely be said to better please the 
palate of some connoisseurs. With us it keeps plump and good till late 
in October, and by that time the Alicante is fit for the table. 
We give Alicantes plenty of fire heat, and so must others if they wish 
to have it in a presentable condition, or for eating either early or late in 
the season, and that is why I maintain it is not an amateur’s Grape. It is 
highly satisfactory, no doubt, to win a prize with one of those easily 
coloured sorts, but when the excitement attending this achievement has 
subsided, or say when the Grapes, either those cut for the show or those 
left on the Vine, come to be eaten, it may be found that even their own 
Grapes may be sour. 
“ A Kitchen Gardener ” asks if my “ Madresfleld Court, or any other 
of my summer Grapes has been passed once this season in favour of later 
varieties.” I fail to see how my answer could possibly affect the argument 
we are holding, but at the same time must answer in the negative. Last 
season, however, I was very badly treated in that respect, and instead of 
being third with Madresfleld Court in a class “ for any other black variety,” 
ought, in the opinion of one of the most successful gardeners of the day, 
as well as Dearly every Grape-grower present, to have been either first or 
second, and the Alicantes third. So much for the assertion that the 
majority of cultivators approve of this haphazard style of judging. Local 
societies aro in the habit of engaging too many judges, little or no regard 
being paid to their qualifications. At least one good man of acknow¬ 
ledged reputation should assist to judge in each section at local shows.— 
W.Iggulden. 
There is a paragraph in “ Thinker’s” paper this week which I think 
should not be allowed to pass without a protest. He states that in the 
“ awarding of prizes for Grapes at exhibitions the whole question turns 
on the purpose for which the objects are staged,” and that “in most cases 
this purpose is to make an imposing display that will attract the public 
and bring gate money adding, “ this being so, as I think it is, late 
varieties of Grapes cannot be excluded from summer shows." I think 
that, perhaps, the purposes and objects of horticultural societies and 
exhibitions were never before put on such a low ground as this. “ Gate 
money” is the object. What does it matter, therefore, whether the fruits 
and flowers are in season or not, or whether the real object of cultivating 
them is served or not ? In plain English this is “ Thinker’s ” creed on the 
subject of shows. It has been often said that the original objects of 
horticultural exhibitions were becoming obscured by such motives and 
“ purposes ” as he describes, but no one has dared openly to avow as 
much before, and I do not know but that after all we are indebted to 
“ Thinker ” for his frankness. I read in the history of horticultural 
societies, as originally promoted by Mr. Knight, Mr. Wedgewood, Sir 
Joseph Banks, and others, that their purpose was to “ encourage horticul¬ 
ture as a useful and humanising industry, and to promote a taste for 
flowers and habits of neatness and order among the humbler classes, &c.,” 
and now we have the exponents of the subject putting such good pur¬ 
poses as these quite out of sight. 
With regard to exhibiting late Grapes at summer shows, I have always 
thought that the practice was indefensible. Late Grapes are avowedly 
grown for winter and spring use, and for no other purpose, and the proof 
of the excellence and usefulness of such varieties consists in producing 
them in perfection at the season they are required. That being so, 
inducements to produce them months before they are wanted or fit to use 
only defeat their purpose. Take the Lady Downe’s Grape for example. 
Its one good quality is that it keeps well, and but for that quality no one 
would prefer it to better Grapes like the Black Hamburgh. What good is 
there, then, in offering prizes for such a Grape in summer and early 
autumn? In other words, if the object of encouraging the culture of the 
Lady Downe’s Grape is its excellent keeping qualities, why not offer the 
prize for it at a season when these qualities can be proved ? always 
assuming, be it remembered, that the “ purpose ” is the culture of a good 
late Grape, and not mere “gate money.”— Non-Believer. 
Mr. Warden seems to have entirely misunderstood what I wrote, 
and I thank the Editor for his footnote. I may say I have no desire to 
“ encourage the growth of late Grapes for summer and autumn shows ” 
solely for the purpose of having them displayed then. What I want is, 
that seeing late Grapes are shown at these shows in response to the in¬ 
vitations of prize schedules, justice should be done them, and other things 
being superior, they should not be debarred from obtaining the award 
simply because they are not shown at times when best for eating. I 
think this has been made plain enough all through this discussion. 
“ Thinker” :-eems to have turned the question pretty well over in his 
mind before putting his “thoughts” to paper. I am glad to see him 
out once more, as, though he does not always agree with other able 
writers and experienced cultivators who are entitled to the greatest con¬ 
sideration, still there is very much that is interesting and instructive, in 
his “ thoughts,” and they have the great recommendation of being 
written in a pleasant manner entirely free from mere carping criticism. 
The meaning of my remarks on the disposal of Grapes after flower 
shows appears to me quite plain. No doubt Mr. Warden will admit this 
after again reading them, and also noting what the Editor has appended 
to his remarks. I hope that an agreement will be come to by all which 
will prove satisfactory, and that any cause for discontent may be removed. 
Our flower shows, as “ Thinker ” remarks, cannot be carried on without 
due regard being given to the gate money. To banish all late Grapes from 
our early autumn shows would take away a very attractive feature, and 
no doubt the consequences would be that financially shows would suffer. 
The public like appearances, and they must be considered when societies 
have to depend in a great measure on what is drawn for admission for 
their maintenance.—8. 
Much has lately been written in your pages about judging Grapes 
