So, granted, we don't know much about the implications of these pollutant 
levels, but Dr. Murchelano has told us, that he's never seen such a high level of incidence. 
I think we have a feeling that we're dealing with a system that's pretty badly degraded- 
much more degraded than some of the estuaries, certainly, being studied by EPA in the 
estuaries program. 
A. Rosenfeld: You said neoplasia is probably one of the most dramatic criteria 
or clues, at least, that the place is dramatically contaminated. This should not be the 
only criteria. Other criteria may be equally significant or as important as neoplasia. The 
criteria depend upon biases as to what is the most important adverse effect. 
Right now, I think Boston Harbor is only using neoplasia, liver carcinomas 
more specifically, in winter flounder as a major criteria for saying it is badly degraded. 
At least you are, Paul, in addition to some of the other criteria, such as certain pollution 
levels. But what are these pollution levels in comparison with Raritan Bay, for example? 
R. Murchelano: Whether we establish criteria in terms of how much attention 
an estuary, body of water, or land should receive in a society, a democratic society by 
fiat, by presidential decree, by legislative action, by referendum, by whatever we want— 
it's bound to vary. Somebody has to arbitrarily designate for the benefit of society 
overall, what things are most important. That's incredibly difficult. I understand that. 
That's basically your question. 
But let's go back even further than that. Why study the phenomena to death? 
By virtue of the fact that we know polluted bodies are polluted. If they're polluted by 
anthropogenic activity, then we should do pollution abatement and pass legislation that 
affects pollution abatement and quit the studies. 
I don't think anyone would disagree that disease in a room, in a body of water 
or in a piece of land that is constricted, and thus where animals are contagiously close, is 
going to be one consequence of pollution. So if that is a given and it is not illogical, then 
we should make the effort for pollution mitigation and legislation that stops the pollution. 
K. Castagna: I'd like to mention something. From strictly a hardware point of 
view, the Metropolitan District Commission wastewater system is extremely antiquated. 
They operate one plant that is over 30 years old and under capacity. We do not have 
enough capacity in that plant for the type of flow that reaches that plant. That's the 
south system, Nut Island Wastewater Treatment Plant. The other plant was constructed 
in 1968 and has had chronic functioning and operations problems due to pumps installed 
there. As far as the level of treatment, it's still at a primary level and, as we know, 
nation wide, other than the waivers that have been granted, secondary treatment is the 
law of the land. 
Cheryl discussed the history of the waiver process. Boston is one of the few 
municipalities left in the country that discharges raw sludge through an outfall pipe. So 
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