FOREST AND STREAM 
[April 20 , 1907. 
630 
Re Amateurs. 
Pittsburg, Pa., April 12. —Editor Forest and Stream: 
My friends in the East have been writing me, calling at¬ 
tention to the fact that trapshooters in that section are 
keenly interested in the correspondence which passed 
between Mr. Charles E. Mink and myself relative to my 
recent “John Doe” ruling on a question submitted to me 
at the instance of Mr. J. K. Starr, of Philadelphia. I 
was asked to rule on the following: 
“ ‘John Doe’ went into the employ of a sporting goods 
dealer a few months ago. When arranging for his weekly 
salary he demanded a certain wage; this was more than 
the firm wanted to pay, but compromised by agreeing to 
give him $3 less and 100 loaded shells each week. It is 
also stated by the manager of this firm that ‘John Doe’ 
pays all his own expenses when attending a match or 
tournament. Does the fact that he receives shells as part 
payment of his wages make him a manufacturers’ or 
agent’s representative?” 
Taking the Interstate Association’s amateur certificate 
as a guide, I decided that to protect the amateur, and in 
the interest of clean sport, I would not permit “John 
Doe” to take part in a tournament given by or under 
the auspices of the Interstate Association, except as a 
manufacturers’ representative; Provided, of course, that 
the arrangement named was in force at any time within 
three months prior to the date of the tournament. 
In this connection the correspondence which follows 
will no doubt prove readable. I fully expected that Mr. 
Mink would give out this correspondence, as per his 
letter of March 14, but as he has not seen fit so to do, I 
feel that it devolves upon me to present it in its entirety 
for publication. Yours very truly, 
Elmer E. Shaner, Sec’y-Mgr. 
Philadelphia, Pa., Jan. 29.—Mr. Elmer Shaner.—Dear 
Eriend: On what grounds do you class me as a profes¬ 
sional shooter? I am employed by the firm of J. B. 
Shannon & Sons as clerk and shell loader, and receive 
compensation for filling said position. Whenever I at¬ 
tend any shooting contests, I do so at my own expense, 
and I receive no shells but what I pay for. About two 
weeks ago I attended a shoot given by Mr. Starr for a 
trophy donated by the Sportsman’s Journal, of Phila¬ 
delphia. My entry was received, and no protest was made 
in reference to my amateur standing until after the con¬ 
test was finished. The party that had tied with me then 
refused to shoot off, claiming that I was a professional 
becayse I was employed by a sporting goods concern. 
The manager who employs me will verify my state¬ 
ments in this letter. 
A reply from you to this matter will be appreciated. 
Sincerely yours, 
(Signed) Chas. E. Mink. 
Care J. B. Shannon & Sons, \ 
816 Chestnut St., Phila., Pa. j 
Pittsburg, Pa., Jan. 30.—Mr. Chas. E. Mink, care J. 
B. Shannon & Sons, Philadelphia, Pa.—Dear Sir: Your 
letter of the 29th inst., is at hand and noted. Before I 
answer the question you ask, I would like to know 
whether you have plainly stated your case to me with¬ 
out any equivocation. Note amateur certificate inclosed 
herewith. 
I would also like to know whether the following is a 
fact: 
“When you went into the employ of J. B. Shannon & 
Sons, did you demand a certain wage, which was more 
than the firm wanted to pay, and did they compromise 
with you by agreeing to give you $3 less and 100 loaded 
shells each week?” 
When I hear from you in regard to the foregoing, I 
will answer your letter of the 29th inst. Yours very truly, 
(Signed) Elmer E. Shaner, Sec’y-Mgr. 
Feb. 4.—Mr. Elmer E. Shaner, Pittsburg, Pa.—Dear 
Mr. Shaner: In reply to your favor, would say that in 
answer to your first question, the firm with which I am 
employed is not a manufacturer or a manufacturer’s 
agent, but merely plain dealers. The agreement was so 
much per week and 100 shells only each week, as they 
stated I would have to buy my shells somewhere, and 
might as well get them from them. 
Yours respectfully, 
(Signed) Chas. E. Mink. 
Pittsburg, Pa., Feb. 7.—Mr. Charles E. Mink, Phila¬ 
delphia, Pa.—Dear Sir: Your letter of the 4th inst., is 
at hand, and by it. I note that you did not plainly state 
your case to me in your letter of Jan. 29, as nothing 
whatever was said in that letter about you receiving 100 
shells each week in part payment of your salary. 
I take this opportunity to state that if the conditions 
were exactly as set forth by you in your letter of Jan. 
29, I would unhesitatingly class you as an amateur. But 
your letter of the 4th inst., in which you say you receive 
100 shells each week in part payment of your salary, 
changes the conditions, and puts the matter in an entirely 
different light. 
The fact that you are in the employ of Messrs. J. B. 
Shannon & Sons does not make you a professional, pro¬ 
vided you are the absolute owner of the gun you shoot 
and pay not less than wholesale market prices for all 
shells used by you. This is in accordance with a ruling 
of the Interstate Association. 
The receiving of 100 shells each week in part payment 
of your salary might be construed by some persons as 
“paying not less than wholesale market prices for the 
shells,” but I cannot see it in that light. I think that 
such an interpretation of the ruling "made by the In¬ 
terstate Association would leave a loophole for much 
trickery, which would be taken advantage of by the 
unscrupulous. To protect the bona fide amateur, and in 
the interest of clean sport, I would not permit you to 
take part in a tournament given by or under the auspices 
of the Interstate Association, except as a professional. 
Provided, of course, the arrangement as named by you 
is in force at any time within three months prior to the 
date of the tournament. 
In conclusion, your case is but a short remove from 
that of Mr. H. F, Buckwalter, who wanted to take part 
in the Eastern Handicap last year as an amateur. Mr. 
Dorp informed me that he gave shells to Mr. Buck- 
waiter at different times. Mr. Buckwalter stated that he 
considered the shells he received from Mr. Dorp as being 
part of his salary; but I could not see it in that light, 
and would not allow him to take part in the tournament 
other than as a professional. 
Yours very truly, 
(Signed) Elmer E. Shaner, Sec’y-Mgr. 
Philadelphia, Pa., Feb. 21.—Mr. Elmer E. Shaner, 
Pittsburg, Pa.—Dear Sir: Replying to your favor, would 
.state that on and after Feb. 16, my arrangements with 
my firm is full pay, and I to pay cash for each 100 
shells I use. Will a receipted bill be a loophole for 
trickery? I would also like to state that the party who 
made a kick about me on this particular day shot in the 
same event, using shells that were given him by a firm 
who is a member of the Interstate Association, and three 
other gentlemen were shooting shells furnished free by 
the above member. 
I have talked to quite a few amateur sportsmen, and 
they all agree that it is a criminal act for part of the 
members of the Interstate Association to make rules and 
then pay their agents to get the bona fide amateur to 
accept the shells free of charge, thereby, according to 
their rules, becoming professionals. 
I have spoken to Mr. Dorp in reference to Buckwalter, 
and he states this was an entirely different arrangement, 
viz., so much per week salary, and all the shells he would 
use, both at the trap and field. Kindly advise me re¬ 
garding the above and oblige yours truly, 
(Signed) Chas. E. Mink. 
Pittsburg, Pa., Feb. 26.—Mr. Charles E. Mink, Phila¬ 
delphia, Pa.—Dear Sir: I own receipt of your letter of 
the 21st inst., which I have read with considerable in¬ 
terest. I am of the opinion that you do not understand 
the situation. If you will refer to my letter of Feb. 7 
you will note that nothing whatever is said about tourna¬ 
ments other than those given by or under the auspices of 
the Interstate Association. I think you will admit that 
the Interstate Association has a perfect right to make 
rules and regulations to govern its own tournaments. 
I note what you say about the arrangement that Mr. 
Buckwalter had, and would repeat that your arrangement 
is but a short remove from that of Mr. Buckwalter. Mr. 
Buckwalter received so much salary per week and all 
the shells he would use at the trap and in the field. You 
receive so much salary per week, and 5,200 shells per 
year. I very much doubt that Mr. Buckwalter used 5,000 
shells per year, at least Sporting Life’s Trap Shooting 
Review for 1905 would not indicate that he did. 
I also note the new arrangement you have made with 
Messrs. J. B. Shannon & Sons. I am not interested in 
this in any way. If you desire to compete as an amateur 
at any of the Interstate Association tournaments, a letter 
from Messrs. J. B. Shannon & Sons showing that you 
have at all times during the three months prior to the 
tournament paid not less than regular wholesale market 
prices for all shells you received from them, and you 
signing one of the Interstate Association amateur cer¬ 
tificates, will settle the matter so far as I, as secretary- 
manager of the Interstate Association, am concerned. 
Yours very truly, 
(Signed) Elmer E. Shaner, Sec’y-Mgr. 
Philadelphia. Pa., March 14.-—Mr. Elmer E. Shaner, 
Pittsburg, Pa.—Dear Mr. Shaner: I did not receive an 
answer to ray last letter. I beg to ask if you object to 
our letters being published in the sporting papers, as one 
of the papers wants to publish the letters I wrote and 
also your answers, just to see what constitutes an 
amateur. Yours truly, 
(Signed) Chas. E. Mink. 
Pittsburg, Pa., March 15.—Mr. Charles E. Mink, Phil¬ 
adelphia, Pa.—Dear Sir: I have your letter of March 14, 
and note that you did not receive an answer to the “last” 
letter you sent me. The last letter I received from you 
(previous to the one I am now answering) bears date 
of Feb. 21, and I answered same under date of Feb. 26. 
You will find a copy of my letter of Feb. 26 inclosed 
herewith. 
I note what you say about publishing our corre¬ 
spondence in the sporting papers, and would state that 
I have no objection whatever to you so doing; in fact, I 
think it would be to the best interests of the sport of 
trapshooting to make it public. Allow me to suggest 
that you send copies of the correspondence to Sporting 
Life, 34 South Third street, Philadelphia, Pa.; Forest 
and Stream, 346 Broadway, New York; Arms and the 
Man, 299 Broadway,. New York; American Field, 801 
Masonic Temple, Chicago, Ill.; Sportsmen’s Review, 15 
West Sixth street, Cincinnati, O.; The Sportsman, 704 
St. Charles street, St. Louis, Mo., and any other journals 
you want to send it to. 
I am sending a copy of this letter to each of the papers 
named. Yours very truly, 
(Signed) Elmer E. Shaner, Sec’y-Mgr. 
Pittsburg, Pa., April 4.—Mr. Charles E. Mink, Phila¬ 
delphia, Pa.—Dear Sir: Referring to your letter of March 
14, this is to advise you that if you do not give our 
correspondence to the sportsmen’s journals in time for 
publication in their issues of April 13, I will give it to 
them in time for their issues of April 20. 
Very truly yours, 
(Signed) Elmer E. Shaner, Sec’y-Mgr. 
New Jersey Slate Sportsmen’s Association. 
Newark, N. J., April 10.—At a meeting of the New 
Jersey State Sportsmen’s Association, held in Plainfield, 
April 4, Chas. T. Day, 618 N. Seventh street, Newark, N. T., 
was elected secretary for the balance of the fiscal year. 
To him all matters in relation to our annual tourna¬ 
ment should be addressed. 
He also asks all shooting clubs in New Jersey to 
send addresses of their club secretaries to him as soon 
as possible, together with such other information as 
they think will assist in making the tournament, which 
will be held in Philipsburg, June 5, 6 and 7, the success 
that we are striving for. Chas. T. Day, Sec’y. 
Bergen Beach Gun Club. 
Bergen Beach, L. I., April 9. —This was the date for 
the regular monthly shoot of this club, and it was in¬ 
tended to hold the fourth shoot of the series of five shoots 
which had been scheduled for the first five months of this 
year, but the weather clerk was certainly anything but 
kind to us, and we had one of the worst days imaginable 
for trapshooting, as a fierce northwest gale, accompanied 
by driving, sticky snow, blew right into the faces of the 
shooters at the score, and though upward of thirty shoot¬ 
ers appeared on the grounds, twenty-three of whom were 
hardy enough to try to smash a few targets, it was de¬ 
cided that it would be best to postpone the shoot until 
next Tuesday, the 16th inst., as it was hardly fair to 
those who did not attend. Hardly any one would think 
that an attempt would be made to hold a shoot on such 
a day. The conditions were too strenuous for those who 
were brave enough to come to the grounds to shoot their 
scores to. count in the series. 
Some of the scores made to-day were nothing short of 
remarkable, notably the two successive scores of 22 out 
of 25 by Mr. John H. Hendrickson. A score of 44 out 
of 50 is not to be sneered at on our grounds when the 
weather conditions are fair; but to do it in such a snow¬ 
storm as we experienced last Tuesday is certainly shoot¬ 
ing some, and the targets were ground up—no slobber¬ 
ing; in fact, if they were not ground up, it would be very 
hard for any one to call the broken ones. 
We were all happy over our success at Montclair, N. 
J., on the 3d inst., and every member of the winning team 
was on hand to-day. 
Our secretary, Mr. L. H. Schortemeier, was absent 
to-day, owing to being laid up with a light case of 
pneumonia; but he is progressing very well, and with 
caution will be out and around very soon. 
Events: 
1 2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
rr 
i 
8 
9 
Targets: 
25 25 15 
15 
25 
25 
10 
15 
10 
Sim Glover . 
. 15 1 
7 10 
11 
14 
20 
Hentscbel . 
. 
. . 
6 
7 
5 
2 
G S K Remsen.. 
. 16 19 .. 
10 
18 
L F Haney. 
9 .. 
7 
5 
Ledoux . 
. 11 12 11 
S 
11 
17 
6 
G Kouwenhoven. 
. 19 . 
11 
1 McKane . 
H IV Drever.... 
. 11 13 .. 
13 
E W Reynolds... 
. 12 . 
. 19 . 
11 
F W Matthews.. 
. 12 . 
. S 
W H Matthews. 
. 10 . 
14 
J S Fanning. 
. 18 . 
A Betti . 
. 16 .. 
H D Bergen.... 
. 18 ... 
9 
Neaf Apgar . 
7 
Geo Piercy . 
. 16 16 .. 
20 
17 
5 
10 
~5 
F .Vlaier . 
. 14 10 .. 
18 
14 
6 
8 
F Russell . 
8 
Tas Voorhees ... 
16 
7 
12 
J Flagg . 
8 
Tno Hendrickson 
. 13 19 .. 
2? 
22 
7 
9 
L Gille . 
. 10 1 
s 
15 
13 
i 
April 13 . —The scores made at the 
shoot 
of the 
Bergen 
Beach Gun Club 
to-day follow 
Events: 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
Targets: 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
Silkworth . 
16 
12 
16 
12 
11 
17 
Bogert . 
0 
11 
5 
5 
Isaac . 
12 
9 
11 
9 
h 
8 
Ryder . 
17 
15 
12 
17 
10 
Bergen . 
13 
18 
Dreyer . 
IS 
11 
i2 
20 
ii 
Haney . 
9 
13 
11 
14 
Silkworth . 
17 
18 
Dreyer . 
13 
1 (3 
Schuster . 
16 
12 
14 
Haney . 
11 
17 
18 
Isaac . 
16 
14 
Match at 21yds. 
, 25 targets: 
Silkworth 7 
, Isaac 
11. 
E. W. Reynolds, Cashier. 
Hudson Gun Club. 
Jersey City, N. J., April 14.—The bi-monthly shoot 
was held to-day on the Hudson Gun Club grounds. 
There was a good attendance, twenty shooters facing the 
traps. The day was fine, but a stiff northwest wind blew 
directly across the traps, which caused the targets to 
take very erratic flights, and also caused the shooters to 
make such low scores. Each event was at 25 targets. 
Scores: 
Events: 
Putney . 
Brown . 
Mattheis .... 
Herring. 
S Castle .... 
H Pape . 
Haddon .... 
Gille . 
Williams ... 
Malcomb ... 
I 2 3 4 5 Events: 1 2 3 4 5 
16 17 18 16 .. Buckley .... 12 12 17 21 
18 17 13 17 .. J Pape . 15 16 16 .. .. 
12 12 10 .. .. Southard ... 16 16 16 14 17 
15 11 10 .. .. Craft . 12 12 21 .. .. 
13 11 15 11 .. Gracely .10 13 12 .. 
14 12 14 .. .. O’Brien .20 16 .. 
13 16 11 .. .. McCauley . 8 11 
15 17 15 .. .. Heritage ... 16 17 15 13 .. 
15 17 16 15 18 Warner . 11 17 23 24 .. 
II 11 14 .. .. Hughes . 19 19 21 23 .. 
Thos. Keller, Sec’y. 
Ossining Gun Club. 
Ossining, N. Y., April 12.- —There was an impromptu 
shoot on the grounds of the club to-day. The selection 
of a site for the new trap was one of the chief purposes 
of the gathering. Four events were shot. Dr. Shaw did 
some fine work in the last two events, breaking 22 out of 
25 under hard weather conditions. Uncle Jerry Gay- 
field made a fine puller, handing out quick, snappy 
birds. Scores: , 
Events: 
1 
2 
3 
4 
Events: 
1 
9 
3 
4 
Targets: 
1 
2 
3 
4 
Targets: 
1 
2 
3 
4 
Dr Shaw . 
S 10 
S 14 
Ed Brewerton.. 
8 
9 
6 
9 
T C Barlow.... 
6 
7 
6 
7 
C Blandford ... 
8 12 
8 10 
Ed Macdonald. 
4 
6 
5 
9 
N Dietrich .... 
4 
9 
5 
9 
. L . :: 
